David C and Ed M have got nothing on us. Claws at the ready, it’s a feminist/ex-feminist bitch fight:
http://twitter.com/#!/thesuzannemoore/status/70869533774188545
http://twitter.com/#!/quietriot_girl/status/70870977394905089
http://twitter.com/#!/thesuzannemoore/status/70874412492140545
http://twitter.com/#!/quietriot_girl/status/70877202677383169
http://twitter.com/#!/thesuzannemoore/status/70877664524775424
http://twitter.com/#!/quietriot_girl/status/70877999846785024
http://twitter.com/#!/thesuzannemoore/status/70878544317779968
http://twitter.com/#!/quietriot_girl/status/70879395883122688
http://twitter.com/#!/thesuzannemoore/status/70882819903209472
http://twitter.com/#!/quietriot_girl/status/70884718731735040
The thing is, this does remind me of my 70s childhood, and Suzanne could be my 70s Mom- well, not my Mom. My Mom was nowhere near as glamorous as Suzanne. But one of the many feminist women I knew throughout the 1970s and 1980s. But it is 2011 now. What have we done to move things forward since then?
Quiet Riot Girl 
LMAO!!! Thanks for the morning hysterics. Made me laugh! 🙂
“Dworkin argues for anyone man or woman to become what they want ending rape is necessary.”
How on earth do you reach such an absurd conclusion?
Moreover, how on earth do these psychotic ideologues imagine we will ever manage to end rape once and for all?
Insane.
Well, I suppose it’s best not to take them too seriously – as a dangerous cultural force, yes, but not as thinkers.
Anyway, thanks again for the comedy. You put a smile on my face on this dreary, rainy morning!!
“Moreover, how on earth do these psychotic ideologues imagine we will ever manage to end rape once and for all?”
Destroy us all (boom, no more planet), no more rape, no more murder, hatred etc.
That is truly what it would take.
“… for anyone man or woman to become what they want …”
What does that even mean? What limits to human potential does Dworkin recognize? Can’t Dworkin see that many people have already become what they wanted even while rape continues to occur? And why does she emphasize becoming what I want, as if what I wanted was necessarily good or worthwhile just because I wanted it? What if I wanted to become a rapist?
And this statement…
“As long as there is rape… there is not going to be any peace or justice or equality or freedom.”
Seriously? Does Dworkin really believe there is absolutely no peace, justice, or equality in this world at all?
What rubbish.
I know David. it’s ridiculous. But apparently I should read Dworkin’s book!
“And why does she emphasize becoming what I want”
Because that’s how you can be genuine, without going “but what will ____ think? will I lose my job/friends/get disowned for expressing/doing/wearing _____?”
Of course, as long as it’s not a crime.
Asking what I want is not as important as asking what is good.
What so-and-so will think, and whether you will lose your job, friends, or family, are important considerations. So-and-so may be right: for example, what you want may hurt you, and if that’s true, it’s not something you should do. Job, friends, and family are important, and should not be discarded lightly.
I think you’re saying we should not act merely out of insecurity. That’s true. But what I’m saying is that there are more important questions than what I want. Absent reflection, pursuing what I want can lead me to misery. I would have respected Dworkin’s statement more if she had said, “for anyone man or woman to become what is good” than “to become what they want“. If what they want is good, then all is well; but we cannot assume that is the case.
I think and hope she did mean “men and women should not act out of insecurity”.
We shouldn’t be “good and moral” out of a fear of some vengeful deity smiting us, or punishing us in the afterlife. We should be moral because its beneficial to us all in the longterm (hurting others “because you can” will lead to chaos, if everyone does it – since no one will trust anyone else).
So men shouldn’t refrain from wearing skirts/dresses, make-up, much jewelry, or “feminine” jewelry anyways, out of fear of persecution. They should refrain from wearing it out of a personal desinclination towards it (I’m not enclined towards much make-up use at all, and my hair grooming is limited to brushing my long mane).
While certain traits could be generally more attractive to potential mates, the situation now is not only rewarding conformance to the ideal, but punishing deviation from a certain standard, too. And that standard seems narrower on expression for men, and narrower on ambition for women.
That standard is very damaging since it projects a very binary image whereas most people can’t readily identify, but don’t object too strongly, because they haven’t attained critical mass threshold.
This critical mass threshold is when people won’t stand for being treated this way, and would rather die defending their right to better than to accept what is prescribed for them. It seems to be rather high for someone who hasn’t been spoiled (ie someone who would reasonably feel wronged for no reason)…but once it’s attained, it’s revolution.
Dictators as well as most modern political leaders have learned to keep people “just happy enough” to prevent being overturned, or a coup d’état. “Bread and games” is from the Roman Empire after all. And it worked, for nearly 1000 years.
I’m stunned women in the middle-east haven’t attained this threshold as a whole, since they represent not a minority, but half the population. I’m similarly stunned men here (in the west) have only begun to show resentment about misandry at the systemic level.
Though, as with everything, the “don’t complain” clause is included in the training. Men who complain are “whiners (hence, weak, hence less valuable)”, and housewives in Japan who complain are “not ladylike (and hence, less valuable)”.
Men’s roles have shifted to something without focus, possibly the only thing that balanced the self-sacrificial nature of their role. You were a martyr, but could say you did it “for the greater good” and were lauded for it. Now, well, you’re a martyr and “it’s your own damn fault” and serves nothing.
Going back is not the solution. But going forward is definitely needed. The status quo is untenable. Critical mass will be attained in the west, for men, pretty soon.
Oh, and the US will probably also have issues, acting as the de-facto world 1st superpower…as all empires to date have fallen. Ottoman, Austria-Hungary, German, English (shadow of it’s former self) and the Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire etc…the US will be no different. It doesn’t claim empire status, but is clearly acting like if it was fact. Critical mass from its opponents will be its downfall, as it gets too arrogant.
Hi, Schala – agreeing with everything you said here. You really struck at the heart of the matter on a number of points. I hope things do change soon. Our current social environment is suffocating.
You may as well start a conversation with an insane person. At least he would not attempt to rationalize evil.
You mean Moore’s now soundbiting the very radical feminist stuff she previously used to do when she was young, then moved away from because it wasn’t really workable (cf Mary Daly)? Or is this part of her strategy of thinking that citing the rhetoric of Dworkin et al will mobilise a new generation of feminist activists? We’ll just overlook the car-crash that followed from the publication of Dworkin’s major works such as <I.Intercourse and Pornography: Men Possessing Women, and the way it derailed feminism for a generation. We’ll also overlook the intervening 30 years, and the possibility that some men do get it about rape.
I think I understand now: QRG is really Alex Drake, and we’re all trapped in Julie Bindel’s re-write of Ashes to Ashes.
Is she actually endorsing the Brownmiller quote? (which seems stupid and offensive.)
I am not 100% sure I have asked her via twitter. Let’s see if she replies!
Reading Moore’s piece in today’s Guardian reminded me of why I like her work. Sample quote:
Those who have attacked him have not done women any favours. Yes, in terms of the law, some rapes are more “serious” than others. Sentencing and punishment vary according to circumstances and aggravating factors. Lack of evidence is a key problem. Pretty much everyone agrees that our conviction rates for rape are appallingly low and the system has to change.
Where then do we start with those changes? It is easier to ask for Clarke’s resignation and imagine that someone with a magnificently right-on agenda will replace him than actually ask what we might do to change attitudes.
…which is much more interesting than tweeting gobbets of Andrea Dworkin.
if you read my response to suzannes article at Graunwatch, and also her comment to me, you might see that she is just singing the same tune but in a slightly different key. Or you might not. But I think she is.
I think redpesto you are a bit like me in you have respected Moore’s work in the past. But I really think she is past her peak.
Cross posted from GraunWatch:
Hi, QRG – I read you response to my comment at your main blog (I didn’t realise GraunWatch was still active). I’ve nothing to say regarding what’s going on between you and Moore, especially if it starts getting heated (see Moore’s ‘Would that turn you on? ‘). What I took from her piece was an article that was a lot better than most of the others I’d read in the past few days, precisely because she wasn’t simply demanding that Clarke resign, or undertake compulsory radical feminist re-education or denounce rape using the following words, or whatever. It was also better than I’d was led to expect if she was tweeting Dworkin quotes.
I’d also add that her stating that she had been raped didn’t lead to a long confessional article about her ordeal: the point (as I see it) was that a wrong was done to her (the absence of consent) rather than any more emotive attempt to persuade through the graphic details of the experience or the aftermath.
I tell you what redpesto. I will admit her article was damned well written. because it has convinced you she is not just spouting the Dworkin type bile she tweeted earlier in the week.
But if you read it closely the content is the same it is just carefully couched.
She has played her rape card like a blinder.
Some people want to become a rapist. This is evident from the fact that rapes occur.
The quote was stupid, but “Did I diss rape … you and your bed fellows …” was the real piece of nastiness there wasn’t it? Not only accussing you of actively supporting rape, but attached to a brazen slutshame. “Huh huh huh, she agrees with teh rapists cos she’s fucking all the rapists like a whore!”
I don’t think you’re the right kind of slut I’m afraid QuiRi…
yes. that was the one that made me stop in my tracks.
Loving the implication that Dworkin ever wrote an actual book.
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